Thank you Dr. Francis for this excellent essay. I agree when you write that "since repentance and forgiveness are products of love, perhaps we should match forgiveness to each word for love in the Greek." Since mankind is made in God's image, God has given us free will, and by this mechanism each of us can choose to repent of our sins and ask Him to forgive us. I did that, and He chose to forgive me in His covenant love and mercy. As 1 John 1:9 declares, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." That's amazing grace!
" ... I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance .... ”
This scripture must be read with discernment, and with awareness of the deep irony which it presents us with.
Remember the Pharisees, who needed no physician, and in their own eyes, were perfect upholders of the commandments of God.
Over such persons, there is no joy in heaven whatsoever, because they are self-righteous, and spiritually healthy, even though in God's eyes, they were the same as filthy sepulchres washed outside with clean white paint.
These are of the kind that looked down on the Lord Jesus Christ for eating with publicans and sinners.
They are of a kind with the elder brother of the Prodigal Son, who also felt himself aggrieved because he had done no wrong - in his own eyes - and yet never had the fatted calf slaughtered for him.
Perhaps we are being told here that "many are called, but few are chosen," perhaps as few as the number mentioned, ie one in a hundred.
" ... Jesus is saying that any wayward scoundrel belonging to this race called human beings, still has the ability to come to his senses and repent and return to a loving father .... "
The Lord Jesus is not saying this.
There are two classes of men; the chosen, and the not-chosen.
Only those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world have the ears to hear, and the heart to understand, so that when they hear the Shepherd's voice, they first repent, and then follow Him.
The writer is placing the decision on whether or not to repent in man's hands; whereas it is only God Who gives the faith which is needful before it is discerned by the sinner that repentance is required of him.
None of this is understood by the other religions he mentions - he is thus an ecumenist, and as such, condemned by the very One Whom he primarily concerns himself with, Whose message was explicit, ie "No man cometh unto the Father but by Me."
His exclusiveness is summarized in the scriptures "I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel," and also in "Ye only have I known, of all the families of the earth."
These things are not available to the beasts of the field, who comprise all the other "humans" he mentions, whose sole function is to serve the children of Adam.
The parable he quotes concerns itself only with the existing family members of God - not with any of the other races of mankind.
Hard sayings, perhaps, but Christ was never an easy man to understand, especially without His indwelling spirit to guide us.
Fortunately for me and for all of humanity (and indeed for Mr. Webb himself), it is not Mr. Webb who decides who is or is not condemned! Our judge is not Mr. Webb, but God himself.
And God’s Grace is unlimited - and cannot be limited or defined by us.
What Mr. Webb describes is not how generations of Christians for more than 2000 years have lived out and witnessed and understood the Gospel.
It is not even the neo-Calvinist position - which itself is not supported by Holy Scripture and by most protestant groups- and definitely not by the Catholics and Orthodox Christians.
Even most neo-Calvinists would refute Mr. Webb’s statement that all other humans except those pre-ordained or “chosen” are “beasts of the field.”
For a discussion of the dangers of neo-Calvinism please see:
There is no pre-selection. There is no favouritism with God. Here are a selection of several Bible verses (from hundreds in the New Testament) that show again and again that God’s Grace in Christ Jesus is available to all:
First, Jesus Himself and the Gospels in the Bible says: (capitalization is mine)
“Come unto me ALL ye that labour and are heavy laden. And I will give you rest.”
“ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
“Him that cometh to Me, I will in no wise cast out.”
“ And of his fulness have ALL we received, and grace for grace.”
“That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
WHOSOEVER drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But WHOSOEVER drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that EVERY ONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if ANY man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
“I am the door: by me if ANY man or woman enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.”
“I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And WHOSOEVER liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.”
“I am come a light into the world, that WHOSOEVER believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”
etc. etc.
God has no favourite race or people :
Race distinctions did not exist in the early Church.
Nor did any idea of pre-selection or predestination.
Holy Scripture again:
“Out of one blood has God created all Nations.”
“God has no favourites.”
etc. etc.
In St. Paul’s Epistles, likewise, see Holy Scripture:
“In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek - all are one in Christ.”
“ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to EVERY ONE that believeth”
“ For God does not show favoritism.”
“ that he might be the father of ALL them that believe”
“ even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.”
etc. etc.
In St. Peter’s Epistle:
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.”
Mr. Webb describes a Darwinian model of selection - except that the selection in this case is presumably a pre-ordained one! His position is a direct result of Darwinian models being adopted by a very small group of people who claim exclusivity.
It is not a Scriptural, historical or traditional Christian position.
Jesus died for me. And His Gift of Grace is available to ALL who believe, all who surrender their lives to Him.
" ... Even most neo-Calvinists would refute Mr. Webb’s statement that all other humans except those pre-ordained or “chosen” are “beasts of the field ..... ”
I ask - where in the scriptures is this word "human" applied to Adam or his descendants?
So is Adam a "human," ( which is legally defined even today as "a kind of monster" ) or the son of God, and a man?
So if a "human" is "a kind of monster," who do you think might want us to believe that we are humans?
The writer certainly seems to want to create that impression, from what he says above.
If these "humans" or "beasts of the field / living creatures", ( Genesis 1, 24-5 ) are hoofed and clawed animals, can anybody explain to me why they responded to Jonah's preaching by covering themselves with sackcloth and ashes?
Why would something called an animal do this?
Did these animals understand moral concepts and the notion of guilt, as the writer started his piece off by claiming for dogs - and maybe cats and elephants too?
How could such an animal comb Nebuchadnezzar's hair and feed him for seven years?
Isn't it obvious, even to somebody who has graduated from a seminary?
In view of all these considerations, are we now a little more able to understand why the powers that control this world want to give us "Human Rights"?
And are we furthermore, able to reject the writer's approach when he speaks of " .. any wayward scoundrel belonging to this race called human beings ... "?
These are not those whom Christ came to save and to redeem
The writer highlights / capitalizes various words in the scriptures he quotes.
Now clearly, as he himself states, these are his capitalizations, they are not in the original verse.
Contrariwise, I highlight other words, which bring his thesis into question.
Now highlighting could equally be described as shining a light on this word or that word.
So at this point, one should tread very carefully, because Lucifer is described as a lightbearer; and the spirit of God is also described as a light to our feet.
One's only task must therefore be to differentiate between the one light and the other.
None of this undermines what I said, and what God clearly expresses.
I gave two scriptures, ( two are needed for doctrine ) which explicitly make the case for exclusivity.
I didn't use the word "condemned," by the way, so "Mr Webb" is not wishing condemnation on anybody; however, what he is doing, with full scriptural authority, is letting it be known that some are saved according to the pre knowledge of God, and some aren't.
This is the mystery of how God works.
For example, listen to what He says to Jeremiah.
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations."
Are we suggesting that God knows something about what He will do with some people; but not about what He will do with all people?
This would be a very dangerous precedent to set.
"God's grace is unlimited."
Not so.
Some are granted this grace, and some are not.
If it is unlimited, then it would be applied to all, all would respond, and all would be saved.
Our writer thinks that he knows how all Christians have lived out and witnessed and understood the gospel for 2000 years.
Now I am not going to take issue with what he seems to think is his omniscience - I rather take issue with how he interprets the scriptures, which as he will know, is what this discussion has to focus on.
Now as I, yet again, never equated my beliefs with Calvinism, then neither should my interlocutor.
And I most certainly will not take instruction from a Catholic, as the writer seems to imply that I ought.
My beliefs stem from a reading of the scriptures, which, as every good Berean will agree, is the way to approach these discussions.
"What say the scriptures?"
As to the "beasts of the field," they are most certainly described by the scriptures - they were forbidden to lay hand or foot on the holy mountain lest they were run through, they ministered to Nebuchadnezzar during his seven years of madness, and they covered themselves with dust and ashes when Jonah preached at Nineveh.
"There is no pre-selection."
If there is no pre selection, then God does not know the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done - this is really a blasphemous belief.
Of course God pre selects.
The power of the gospel is that, despite all our weakness and lack of faith, He will still deliver us from the hand of darkness, and the machinations of the Evil One.
Our friend's references to "all" etc are contingent upon a particular individual hearing and responding to His words, which requires, as He says, "he that hath ears to hear."
Others, without these pre ordained ears, will ignore all His words.
Let me give just one example from what we are told.
" .. “ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to EVERY ONE that believeth ... "
It is not said, "It is the power of God to everyone," as the writer implicitly affirms, ( that's why he capitalizes the words.)
It is rather, "The power of God to every one THAT BELIEVETH," and as we know, faith is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
So only those who were given this gift of faith will ever believe.
Darwin of course has nothing whatsoever to do with what I have said - again, I am being straw manned, as I was straw manned by equating my beliefs with those of Calvin.
One more - there are so many to choose from.
"Not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL ...etc."
Far better to have capitalized "WILLING" than "any or "all."
Oh I love this. Thank you. ❣️
Thank you Dr. Francis for this excellent essay. I agree when you write that "since repentance and forgiveness are products of love, perhaps we should match forgiveness to each word for love in the Greek." Since mankind is made in God's image, God has given us free will, and by this mechanism each of us can choose to repent of our sins and ask Him to forgive us. I did that, and He chose to forgive me in His covenant love and mercy. As 1 John 1:9 declares, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." That's amazing grace!
Had not heard this hymn before, but it is beautiful and meaningful.
" ... I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance .... ”
This scripture must be read with discernment, and with awareness of the deep irony which it presents us with.
Remember the Pharisees, who needed no physician, and in their own eyes, were perfect upholders of the commandments of God.
Over such persons, there is no joy in heaven whatsoever, because they are self-righteous, and spiritually healthy, even though in God's eyes, they were the same as filthy sepulchres washed outside with clean white paint.
These are of the kind that looked down on the Lord Jesus Christ for eating with publicans and sinners.
They are of a kind with the elder brother of the Prodigal Son, who also felt himself aggrieved because he had done no wrong - in his own eyes - and yet never had the fatted calf slaughtered for him.
Perhaps we are being told here that "many are called, but few are chosen," perhaps as few as the number mentioned, ie one in a hundred.
" ... Jesus is saying that any wayward scoundrel belonging to this race called human beings, still has the ability to come to his senses and repent and return to a loving father .... "
The Lord Jesus is not saying this.
There are two classes of men; the chosen, and the not-chosen.
Only those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world have the ears to hear, and the heart to understand, so that when they hear the Shepherd's voice, they first repent, and then follow Him.
The writer is placing the decision on whether or not to repent in man's hands; whereas it is only God Who gives the faith which is needful before it is discerned by the sinner that repentance is required of him.
None of this is understood by the other religions he mentions - he is thus an ecumenist, and as such, condemned by the very One Whom he primarily concerns himself with, Whose message was explicit, ie "No man cometh unto the Father but by Me."
His exclusiveness is summarized in the scriptures "I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel," and also in "Ye only have I known, of all the families of the earth."
These things are not available to the beasts of the field, who comprise all the other "humans" he mentions, whose sole function is to serve the children of Adam.
The parable he quotes concerns itself only with the existing family members of God - not with any of the other races of mankind.
Hard sayings, perhaps, but Christ was never an easy man to understand, especially without His indwelling spirit to guide us.
Fortunately for me and for all of humanity (and indeed for Mr. Webb himself), it is not Mr. Webb who decides who is or is not condemned! Our judge is not Mr. Webb, but God himself.
And God’s Grace is unlimited - and cannot be limited or defined by us.
What Mr. Webb describes is not how generations of Christians for more than 2000 years have lived out and witnessed and understood the Gospel.
It is not even the neo-Calvinist position - which itself is not supported by Holy Scripture and by most protestant groups- and definitely not by the Catholics and Orthodox Christians.
Even most neo-Calvinists would refute Mr. Webb’s statement that all other humans except those pre-ordained or “chosen” are “beasts of the field.”
For a discussion of the dangers of neo-Calvinism please see:
https://www.bibelkreis.ch/Calvin/The_Dark_Side_of_Calvinism.pdf
It can also be shown, that according to the theology of the modern neo-Calvinists, John Calvin himself was not a Calvinist! Please see;
https://agrammatos.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/was-calvin-a-calvinist-12-26-09.pdf
There is no pre-selection. There is no favouritism with God. Here are a selection of several Bible verses (from hundreds in the New Testament) that show again and again that God’s Grace in Christ Jesus is available to all:
First, Jesus Himself and the Gospels in the Bible says: (capitalization is mine)
“Come unto me ALL ye that labour and are heavy laden. And I will give you rest.”
“ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
“Him that cometh to Me, I will in no wise cast out.”
“ And of his fulness have ALL we received, and grace for grace.”
“That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
WHOSOEVER drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But WHOSOEVER drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that EVERY ONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if ANY man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
“I am the door: by me if ANY man or woman enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.”
“I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And WHOSOEVER liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.”
“I am come a light into the world, that WHOSOEVER believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”
etc. etc.
God has no favourite race or people :
Race distinctions did not exist in the early Church.
Nor did any idea of pre-selection or predestination.
Holy Scripture again:
“Out of one blood has God created all Nations.”
“God has no favourites.”
etc. etc.
In St. Paul’s Epistles, likewise, see Holy Scripture:
“In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek - all are one in Christ.”
“ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to EVERY ONE that believeth”
“ For God does not show favoritism.”
“ that he might be the father of ALL them that believe”
“ even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.”
etc. etc.
In St. Peter’s Epistle:
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.”
Mr. Webb describes a Darwinian model of selection - except that the selection in this case is presumably a pre-ordained one! His position is a direct result of Darwinian models being adopted by a very small group of people who claim exclusivity.
It is not a Scriptural, historical or traditional Christian position.
Jesus died for me. And His Gift of Grace is available to ALL who believe, all who surrender their lives to Him.
Jesus died for Mr. Webb too.
" ... Even most neo-Calvinists would refute Mr. Webb’s statement that all other humans except those pre-ordained or “chosen” are “beasts of the field ..... ”
I ask - where in the scriptures is this word "human" applied to Adam or his descendants?
So is Adam a "human," ( which is legally defined even today as "a kind of monster" ) or the son of God, and a man?
So if a "human" is "a kind of monster," who do you think might want us to believe that we are humans?
The writer certainly seems to want to create that impression, from what he says above.
If these "humans" or "beasts of the field / living creatures", ( Genesis 1, 24-5 ) are hoofed and clawed animals, can anybody explain to me why they responded to Jonah's preaching by covering themselves with sackcloth and ashes?
Why would something called an animal do this?
Did these animals understand moral concepts and the notion of guilt, as the writer started his piece off by claiming for dogs - and maybe cats and elephants too?
How could such an animal comb Nebuchadnezzar's hair and feed him for seven years?
Isn't it obvious, even to somebody who has graduated from a seminary?
In view of all these considerations, are we now a little more able to understand why the powers that control this world want to give us "Human Rights"?
And are we furthermore, able to reject the writer's approach when he speaks of " .. any wayward scoundrel belonging to this race called human beings ... "?
These are not those whom Christ came to save and to redeem
Note something quite interesting.
The writer highlights / capitalizes various words in the scriptures he quotes.
Now clearly, as he himself states, these are his capitalizations, they are not in the original verse.
Contrariwise, I highlight other words, which bring his thesis into question.
Now highlighting could equally be described as shining a light on this word or that word.
So at this point, one should tread very carefully, because Lucifer is described as a lightbearer; and the spirit of God is also described as a light to our feet.
One's only task must therefore be to differentiate between the one light and the other.
Who is shining the one, and who the other?
None of this undermines what I said, and what God clearly expresses.
I gave two scriptures, ( two are needed for doctrine ) which explicitly make the case for exclusivity.
I didn't use the word "condemned," by the way, so "Mr Webb" is not wishing condemnation on anybody; however, what he is doing, with full scriptural authority, is letting it be known that some are saved according to the pre knowledge of God, and some aren't.
This is the mystery of how God works.
For example, listen to what He says to Jeremiah.
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations."
Are we suggesting that God knows something about what He will do with some people; but not about what He will do with all people?
This would be a very dangerous precedent to set.
"God's grace is unlimited."
Not so.
Some are granted this grace, and some are not.
If it is unlimited, then it would be applied to all, all would respond, and all would be saved.
Our writer thinks that he knows how all Christians have lived out and witnessed and understood the gospel for 2000 years.
Now I am not going to take issue with what he seems to think is his omniscience - I rather take issue with how he interprets the scriptures, which as he will know, is what this discussion has to focus on.
Now as I, yet again, never equated my beliefs with Calvinism, then neither should my interlocutor.
And I most certainly will not take instruction from a Catholic, as the writer seems to imply that I ought.
My beliefs stem from a reading of the scriptures, which, as every good Berean will agree, is the way to approach these discussions.
"What say the scriptures?"
As to the "beasts of the field," they are most certainly described by the scriptures - they were forbidden to lay hand or foot on the holy mountain lest they were run through, they ministered to Nebuchadnezzar during his seven years of madness, and they covered themselves with dust and ashes when Jonah preached at Nineveh.
"There is no pre-selection."
If there is no pre selection, then God does not know the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done - this is really a blasphemous belief.
Of course God pre selects.
The power of the gospel is that, despite all our weakness and lack of faith, He will still deliver us from the hand of darkness, and the machinations of the Evil One.
Our friend's references to "all" etc are contingent upon a particular individual hearing and responding to His words, which requires, as He says, "he that hath ears to hear."
Others, without these pre ordained ears, will ignore all His words.
Let me give just one example from what we are told.
" .. “ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to EVERY ONE that believeth ... "
It is not said, "It is the power of God to everyone," as the writer implicitly affirms, ( that's why he capitalizes the words.)
It is rather, "The power of God to every one THAT BELIEVETH," and as we know, faith is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
So only those who were given this gift of faith will ever believe.
Darwin of course has nothing whatsoever to do with what I have said - again, I am being straw manned, as I was straw manned by equating my beliefs with those of Calvin.
One more - there are so many to choose from.
"Not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL ...etc."
Far better to have capitalized "WILLING" than "any or "all."
So this gift is to a select few only.
Mr Webb. All this verbal fight is useless. I think you should have quit earlier. My valuable opinion. Good day
Thank you so much - your opinion is extremely valuable, so thank you for caring enough to bestow it on us.